Season 2 Episode 2 Sali Mudawi: I Am Not My Hair

[00:00] Sali Mudawi: I thrive off emotional and deep conversations, and when people can't go into those places, I kind of disconnect. After losing my sister, I feel like life is too short to be on the surface and be having too much small talk. Small talk is fine, just not all the time.

[00:26] Chapter 1: Welcome to Stories That Stay

[00:26] Shamm H. Petros: Welcome to Stories That Stay: How Stories of Identity Shape Us. I'm Shamm Petros.

[00:33] Dwight Dunston: And I'm Dwight Dunston. Stories That Stay podcast is a project of Lion's Story. In this episode, our guest, Sali Mudawi, will tell her story about personal experiences and early encounters of race or difference. Shamm and I will share practical tools and reflective questions to help you, our listeners, and Sali navigate identity and difference with more clarity and less fear. So whether you're an educator, organizer, artist, or someone simply trying to make sense of what you've been feeling in the world around you, you're in the right place.

[01:10] Chapter 2: Mindful Moment

[01:10] Dwight Dunston: Our guest, Sali, is already here in the studio. Sali, how are you?

[01:16] Sali Mudawi: Hi. I'm good, thank you. How are you?

[01:18] Shamm H. Petros: Good to see you, Sali.

[01:20] Dwight Dunston: So good. So great to have you with us today.

[01:23] Sali Mudawi: Thank you.

[01:25] Shamm H. Petros: To honor this moment and the stories that Sali is about to share, we'll take some breaths together. This will help us all prepare for feelings, emotions, and truths as they emerge. Wherever you are, walking, driving, resting, working, wherever it may be, I invite you to take a few breaths just for you in this moment. And I invite everyone in our space together to continue inhaling and exhaling for about 45 seconds here while we share an audio reprieve. Sali, Dwight, just a quick invitation to take a breath here. Give me one more inhale and exhale.

[02:19] Chapter 3: How Shamm and Sali Met

[02:19] Shamm H. Petros: We have a very special seat filled in the studio today. I've actually known Sali from other contexts in my life. I was on a mission to go on a solo trip to Zanzibar. When I arrived, a friend of mine, Mo, saw that I was there alone, and he essentially was like, no way, and invited me to his group with his family and friends. And I spent the week with them. And that first night there, I met Sali. It was serendipitous. It was beautiful. It's been a gift of a friendship.

[02:54] Sali Mudawi: Yeah, no, it's been magical, honestly, because, yeah, I feel like you just find that connection with certain people, and then you know you're going to be friends for a long time.

[03:06] Chapter 4: Meet Sali Mudawi

[03:06] Dwight Dunston: Well, Sali, for our listeners who are just meeting you and didn't have the chance like Shamm to connect years ago and have awesome adventures, a few things you shared with us in preparation for this is, you're a Muslim. You live in the UK. You're a Swedish national of Sudanese origin. And here on the podcast, we often say that our cultures, our identities, they really shape us, along with the experiences we have inside of those and outside of those.

[03:35] Dwight Dunston: You also have a background in architecture and later were drawn to photography as you found that medium allowed for deeper connection through portraits, emotion, and storytelling. And I can't wait to hear just more about that journey as well, Sali. But that's just what we had on our end from the bio. Anything else you want to add here at the top of our time together about who you are, what you want to bring in?

[04:02] Chapter 5: Architecture, Creativity, and Exploration

[04:02] Sali Mudawi: I'd say I'm just a person exploring as I go. I don't like to confine myself in a box because I realized in the creative industry, at least once you do one creative thing, they want you to stay in that creative role. But I think as a creative, you're good at many different things. So yeah, I'm always exploring new things, I guess.

[04:26] Sali Mudawi: I studied architecture because I was fascinated by buildings and shapes and textures and all of that. And I also liked maths, so it was like a no-brainer. I also liked drawing. Half of my family is left-handed and, funnily enough, we're all the ones that can draw. So my mum, my brother, and I. Yeah, so I was just like, architecture's it. But once I studied architecture, it was like hell on earth. It was really difficult. I still love it and I'm fascinated by it. I just don't know if I want to work in it again. I gave it a go in the corporate world, but yeah, it was also just as hell as university was. It's also very male-dominated, no women, et cetera.

[05:17] Chapter 6: Grief and the Path to Photography

[05:17] Sali Mudawi: And then I actually discovered photography when I was made redundant. I wouldn't say I discovered it then, but I used to take photos on my phone, a lot of landscapes and stuff, because naturally that's what I did in architecture. And then I had a camera, like a DSLR camera that my mum got me when I started university to take pictures of the models I make, and then I decided to use it, you know, just for random things.

[05:44] Sali Mudawi: So, my sister passed away three months before I got made redundant. I decided to just take the time for myself. Sorry, I didn't think I'd get emotional already.

[05:57] Shamm H. Petros: We're here with you. Yeah, in the right hands.

[06:02] Sali Mudawi: It's so funny because I don't usually cry anymore when I talk about her. It's been nine years. It's not that, you know, you cry after it's been a lot of years, but it's just like it took me back, just saying that, to that moment when I was in a really low place. And then, you know, I decided to just push through. Not push through, but to just live life and not be confined by a job or having to live life like everyone wants you to live life.

[06:36] Sali Mudawi: So yeah, once I got made redundant a few months after, I was unemployed for 10 months, and that's where I really explored photography. I would go to creative meetups and meet people from all walks of life, all types of talents. And yeah, that's when I realized I don't just want to take pictures of landscapes anymore. I want to take pictures of people because I can connect, and there's stories behind everyone.

[07:07] Sali Mudawi: In particular, I felt like the eyes were really telling. Eyes really tell stories. I find myself, even randomly on the street, I look at people's eyes and I think about what they may have gone through, or even pictures, because when you capture someone in a still moment, I think you can tell a lot more about them than when there's a lot of movement.

[07:34] Dwight Dunston: We're going to be diving deep into some stories here. We've already begun, and there's some deep drilling right above Sali that's happening. So it's a metaphor. We're bringing that in. So if you hear that, Sali already let us know that's happening upstairs. And yeah, I just want to honor and really thank you, Sali, for sharing. And we're holding that. As Shamm said, this is a place where we really just want to honor stories, and whatever comes up is just right. And for our listeners, we're going to be holding you and the experiences, too, of Sali's stories, really giving you some language, some tools to really understand how you're feeling, what's coming up for you, scaling emotions.

[08:17] Shamm H. Petros: Thank you for sharing and allowing it to come here and fill the space where we can hold it. As you were describing your career, I was like, how did you get from buildings to such deep portraits? You just allowed us a window into that transition.

[08:31] Sali Mudawi: Grief.

[08:33] Shamm H. Petros: It don't make no sense sometimes, right? Like, it really doesn't.

[08:39] Chapter 7: Scaling Stress Before the Story

[08:39] Shamm H. Petros: Sali, I want to get into maybe some of the skills that's just going to support you emotionally today. We asked all of our guests this at the beginning of our time together, because it's one thing to say I'm happy or I'm grieving, right? We believe putting a number to it gives us a lot more details.

[08:59] Sali Mudawi: Right.

[09:00] Shamm H. Petros: And understanding of ourselves. I want to ask, on a scale from one to 10, how are you feeling about sharing your story today? One being not stressed at all and 10 being very stressed.

[09:13] Sali Mudawi: One.

[09:14] Shamm H. Petros: And where do you feel that one? How do you know it's a one?

[09:19] Sali Mudawi: I thrive off emotional and deep conversations, and when people can't go into those places, I kind of disconnect because I feel like after losing my sister, I feel like life is too short to be on the surface and be having too much small talk. Small talk is fine, just not all the time.

[09:38] Shamm H. Petros: Thank you for sharing that, that you're at a one. And at this time, I'm going to pass it over to my dear friend and co-host. Take us through the next part of our time together.

[09:48] Chapter 8: Sali's Earliest Memory of Difference

[09:48] Dwight Dunston: So Sali, we always start with the same question for all of our guests. And so just to get us started, we want to ask you, what's the earliest memory of a difference that you recall?

[10:04] Sali Mudawi: So it was when I was six years old in Sweden. I grew up there until I was 12. And we have something called the six-year-old group. It's like the year you go into before you go into primary school. I guess you guys call it preschool.

[10:21] Sali Mudawi: There was one day where a teacher pulled me aside. He was like a support teacher. He would always be in the playground or whatever looking after us. So he wasn't teaching us a subject, but he was just there as extra support. And his name was John, and I used to love him because he was really fun. And then he pulls me aside, and he was like, I have to apologize to you. You know, I called you Medusa, and now everyone's calling you Medusa because I had braids. My mum used to do those box braids, but I had really thick hair as a kid.

[11:01] Sali Mudawi: So I guess they just were bewildered by my hair. So I was so confused. And then that was such a cool memory in my head that I grew up later on and I thought back to it and I was like, hold on, no one in my family knew this happened, and he just apologized to a six-year-old. And I was so confused by that moment, but it stuck in my head because it was a serious moment with one of my favorite teachers. So I didn't forget about it. But thinking back, I'm always like, because I had a lot of insecurities with my hair growing up, did it stem from this moment? Is this when I realized that people were making fun of me because of my hair? You know, a lot of questions came up.

[11:52] Chapter 9: Naming the Emotions

[11:52] Dwight Dunston: Yeah, so many. So many stories happen in these places of education. There's a number of questions that are coming up for me, perhaps our listeners, around the teacher or what else, you know, the why and those kinds of things. But we want to slow it down and really move you through a process. So thank you, one, for sharing that story and just the ways that you're making sense of, oh yeah, how did this stay with me even after the fact? Sounds like you've been on a journey with your hair throughout life.

[12:26] Dwight Dunston: And just telling it here, retelling this story, I'm curious if there are any emotions that come up in this moment. And once again, if you could scale them as you did with Shamm already, on a scale from one to 10, one being like, I feel this emotion with very little, not a lot; 10 being, I feel this emotion, it's all-consuming, all-encompassing.

[12:48] Sali Mudawi: I think what I do feel is maybe cheated a little bit, because obviously that matter should have gone to my parents. So I feel like I was kind of cheated from, I don't know if cheated is the right word, but just not given the opportunity to actually process what happened because I guess I was picked on. I wouldn't say I was bullied, because I think it was just for a moment in time that it happened. I was quite lucky and like, not popular, but people liked me in school. And on a scale from one to 10, I would say, so eight is on the higher side? Okay. Yeah, eight.

[13:33] Dwight Dunston: Eight would be on the higher side. And you would say eight?

[13:37] Sali Mudawi: Yeah. Because I believe, listen, I hate injustices. And I'm like, it doesn't matter how much time has passed, people need to be held accountable.

[13:47] Dwight Dunston: So cheated at an eight. And any other feelings as you retell that story or feel into it?

[13:54] Sali Mudawi: I don't know if I carry that sadness now because I have fully embraced my hair, and maybe it helped me to even embrace my hair. And it's kind of like a statement now, I guess. Yeah, maybe sadness is halfway, so like a five, because for my younger self, I wish I had been able to console her, or for my family or anyone. But yeah, we've turned it around.

[14:22] Chapter 10: Where the Story Lives in the Body

[14:22] Dwight Dunston: Yeah. Cheated at an eight, sad at a five. We're going to get into this in just a little bit. You also have some self-talk that you're already starting to do, right? Like, I've resolved this in myself. It's a part of me that I love. On our end, yeah, we call that the self-talk: the things we say to ourselves as we slow down and be with the feelings and emotions.

[14:46] Dwight Dunston: And before we open it up to any more images or self-talk, do you feel these emotions anywhere in your body, physically? Do they live anywhere? And if so, could you describe where?

[14:59] Sali Mudawi: I think my chest. Yeah, that's where I feel it.

[15:04] Dwight Dunston: And does it feel, is it like tightness? Is it coolness? Is it...

[15:09] Sali Mudawi: Yeah. Tightness, that's for sure. Yeah. I often find myself having to stretch sometimes due to the tightness. Yeah, just being an emotional, sensitive being, I think I carry a lot in my chest.

[15:27] Dwight Dunston: Yeah. So invite you to do any stretches, any things, any movements that feel good in this moment. Also, our listeners, an invitation for you as well to just notice as Sali is sharing, if there's anything you notice about the feelings that are coming up and where they're showing up. Sali, any other noticings now that you've moved a little bit, moved that tightness in the chest?

[15:53] Sali Mudawi: There's always tightness around my shoulders. And yeah, I think shoulders is another one, for sure. Yeah.

[16:04] Dwight Dunston: And so much a part of this work is around just slowing down and noticing, right, when we start to tell our stories, what's happening for us. Even if those stories took place decades ago, these stories still are in our bodies. The feelings are still there. And just slowing down as a way to honor them, whatever they might be, when we start to tell our stories is such an important part of healing them, reconciling, harvesting the wisdom from them. So appreciate you just modeling that awareness and generosity to share how it's landing.

[16:46] Chapter 11: Self-Talk, Images, and Hair

[16:46] Dwight Dunston: Last question before I bring Shamm in. You already started to do this. We invite folks to share any self-talk, so things they're saying to themselves as they tell the story and notice the feelings and locate where those feelings are showing up, but also images. And you already provided some images as you were storytelling. And your story is also connected to your hair, right? Which is so visual for folks of color, for Black folks, for Brown folks. Folks often see us coming. They might see our hair first when we're coming. So it's such a beautiful part of who we are. Any other images coming to mind or any things you were saying to yourself as you were telling the story or remembering the story?

[17:35] Sali Mudawi: The thing that kept me going was people will always make fun of what they don't understand. It's not always stemming from jealousy, because I think a lot of people will be like, oh, they're just jealous of you, or whatever. But I think a lot of ignorance and racism comes from, yeah, people just not understanding. And instead of taking the time to learn, they'll make fun of you because it's just easier.

[18:01] Sali Mudawi: I think that was one thing that I kept telling myself as a kid growing up, when I got into my teens. Yeah. Because it wasn't just white people making fun of my hair. It was also people from Sudan. So yeah, or just the Black community in general. And it wasn't because, I guess, I had Black hair, but it was because of how much hair I had. And they always used to ask my mum, how did you handle it? And so my mum relaxed my hair when I was like 10 years old or 11 years old. And I was the only one out of my sisters who got their hair relaxed because it was just too much to manage. So I always felt outed because of my hair, or different, I guess. So yeah, I kind of had to give myself that pep talk.

[18:52] Dwight Dunston: Shamm, I want to bring you in. Shamm.

[18:55] Chapter 12: Understanding the CLCBE Practice

[18:55] Shamm H. Petros: Yeah. You know, I'm over here like, relatable, Sali. Very much. Very, very, very, very much. Even the distinction you made of, it wasn't just white people making these comments. It's folks that look like you from your own country, maybe even your own family. And this idea of, like, can't be managed or maintained or tamed.

[19:23] Shamm H. Petros: For people of color, especially Black people, their stories start at four years old. Those earlier narratives, not just what happened to you, but like, who were the characters, what was done, not done, all of that, it takes a vivid image. But for us, we also see it as data. What we needed, what wasn't provided, we felt it play into our larger story. That's what we try to do here a bit.

[19:57] Shamm H. Petros: The process Dwight just took you through, we call it CLCBE. C is calculate, where you calculate all your emotions. So, you mentioned sad at five, cheated at an eight.

[20:10] Sali Mudawi: Right.

[20:11] Shamm H. Petros: You located it in the tightness in your chest and tension in your shoulders.

[20:17] Sali Mudawi: Mhm.

[20:18] Shamm H. Petros: And you're also able to recalibrate. You know yourself. So the other C is communicate. So communicate self-talk, communicate image. Self-talk is often difficult for a lot of people, but you got straight to it. You said people always make fun of what they don't understand. I don't know if that was your voice now, but also your voice at age six, but that's a powerful testament. Even when we look at the data of self-talk, we look at the function, like, oh, did this self-talk help me protect myself, or did it direct me to correct something? Right. I find that to be very protective for you.

[20:59] Shamm H. Petros: And the images, for me, the images were spewing out. I feel like I can really understand. And the hurt, maybe not the hurt, and the shaping of our identities at times, even within our own families, Sudanese, Eritrean cultures, we're so diverse. But, you know, people say we all look alike. We feel the nuances of that diversity, especially as girls.

[21:29] Shamm H. Petros: That's what we wanted to offer to you today. And you did it beautifully. You calculated your emotions, you located it, you communicated image and self-talk. We believe you can use this for all your stories, all your pain points, all those moments of tension. Not just saying, oh, I'm stressed, right, but really getting into it so you feel like you know your body better, and once you do, you have more agency.

[21:59] Sali Mudawi: Right.

[21:59] Shamm H. Petros: Because there's a difference between saying, oh, I was sad about this. But you know what? I was sad at a five. I can hold that in one hand. In the bigger picture, I was cheated at eight. And that cheated at eight for you elevated justice. Oh, my parents should have known. Why are you telling me, a child, this? And that's the method we hope all of our storytellers can use in and out of this space.

[22:25] Chapter 13: How the Story Feels After Sharing

[22:25] Shamm H. Petros: Before we end, I would like to ask a question that I asked in the beginning. After sharing your story, how is your stress level?

[22:36] Sali Mudawi: Yeah, I would say it's gone up because, you know, you've gone back down memory lane, and you kind of get annoyed about some stuff, kind of like the injustice of being cheated. Now I'm like, next time I go to Sweden, I'm going to go to the school. I'm joking.

[22:54] Dwight Dunston: Listen, some people tell stories and start doing those kinds of things, Sali.

[22:59] Sali Mudawi: No, but I feel like once, yeah, I feel like a three. It's gone up a bit because I'm like, maybe once that memory came, I should have maybe told someone or done more research, but I kind of just left it.

[23:15] Chapter 14: Practicing the Response You Needed

[23:15] Shamm H. Petros: And that happens where I work. That's why we said healing is not linear. What we really want people to feel after working with us is really curious about their emotions.

[23:27] Sali Mudawi: Right.

[23:28] Shamm H. Petros: And courageous. And we want to prime people to prepare for conflict. We won't be able to practice this now, but this is kind of like the next evolution of the skills we teach. Once this call is over, I strongly recommend you either write down or record what you wish you said. And yes, you were six, and yes, there was no way you would have known better. I want you to channel Sali now. Right?

[23:55] Shamm H. Petros: And it's so cathartic. We encourage cursing, we encourage fighting, we encourage it all. What will your comeback be? Write it out. Put it in a voice note, or practice it in a mirror. And keep practicing until it's a sort of a math, until you're relieved at an eight, because I'm taking your cheated number at an eight. See how that regulates your body and do that CLCB again. Right? Because, you know, we can't always go back in time. You do even have options. We have participants that have emailed their teacher and gotten responses or haven't got responses. When we do this practice, it's not actually for you to do something. It's for you to practice regulation, to know what feels just in your body and in your story.

[24:39] Sali Mudawi: I think that sounds like a plan. Yeah. And I love journaling because I don't hold back. I think that's a good idea.

[24:48] Shamm H. Petros: Thank you, Sali.

[24:50] Chapter 15: Photography as Calling and Connection

[24:50] Dwight Dunston: I'm just like, oh. It also makes sense to me that you became, you've sort of picked up this artistic calling to take pictures of people. Right? And I feel proud of you at a 10, you know, and inspired at a 10 that you've committed to being the person behind the lens, capturing people's beauty and reflecting it back to them.

[25:18] Dwight Dunston: One question that we ask our guest is, if you had to put the story you shared, this early memory, first story, as like a headline or a hashtag, what would this story be for you? What would the hashtag or headline of this story be?

[25:36] Sali Mudawi: Probably, I am not my hair. I think that's what I've learned growing up, is people have always tried to identify me with my hair. Even now, it's like, it's a statement. Some people are more obsessed about my hair than I am, and I'm just like, okay. But yeah, I'm not my hair.

[25:59] Dwight Dunston: I'm not my hair.

[26:02] Chapter 16: Sali's Last Conversation with Her Sister

[26:02] Sali Mudawi: I also wanted to add, I don't know if this will fit in with the rest. I mean, if you can fit it in with the rest. The reason why I felt like photography was a journey I definitely should embark on was the last conversation I had with my sister. I was actually telling her about my new iPhone 8, I think it was back then. And I was like, the camera's so amazing. And she said, enjoy. And that was the last thing. And I was like, okay, this is it. So I definitely made sure I enjoyed my photography journey. And yeah, it felt like a calling.

[26:41] Shamm H. Petros: For sure. Purpose.

[26:43] Sali Mudawi: Yeah. Or to just enjoy anything in life.

[26:47] Shamm H. Petros: Thank you, Sali.

[26:48] Sali Mudawi: Yeah, no, thank you.

[26:50] Dwight Dunston: Wow. Thank you so much, Sali. Grateful for all of your sharing, your gifts. Yes, your generosity. And appreciate you for spending some time with Shamm and I today.

[27:02] Sali Mudawi: It was amazing. Thank you guys for what you do. It's important.

[27:07] Chapter 17: Closing Breaths and Outro

[27:07] Dwight Dunston: So thank you so much, Sali, for sharing, for your gifts and courageous, generous storytelling. For our listeners, we want to invite you to take a few closing breaths with us here together as you transition away from this podcast and turn to whatever your day holds next.

[27:30] Shamm H. Petros: Thank you so much for tuning in to Stories That Stay: How Stories of Identity Shape Us. This podcast is a project of Lion's Story, an organization grounded in over 40 years of research in psychology, racial socialization, human development, and conflict resolution. To learn more about Lion's Story and our trainings, workshops, and resources, please visit thelionsstory.org.

[27:53] Shamm H. Petros: This episode of Stories That Stay was produced and edited by Peterson Toscano. Music during our mindful moment comes from Dwight Dunston himself. Other music comes from Epidemic Sound. To see the show notes and transcript, please visit storiesthatstay.net.

[28:10] Shamm H. Petros: Thank you again for joining us. If you found value in today's episode, please share this with someone who needs it, who you think might enjoy it. If you haven't done so yet, I invite you to review and subscribe to Stories That Stay. We're so grateful for your support. Will you help this community grow? Your support turns our research into practical tools and training for people who need it the most.

[28:38] Dwight Dunston: Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep telling your story. And remember, you are your most important listener.