Introduction

Shamm Petros: Welcome to Stories That Stay: How Stories of Identity Shape Who We Become. This is a podcast where healing happens at the intersection of art, science, and storytelling. I'm Shamm Petros, a therapist, learning strategist, refugee, and reluctant creative.

Dwight Dunston: And I'm Dwight Dunston, a facilitator, educator, artist, and proud uncle. Stories That Stay is a project of Lion’s Story.

Shamm Petros: At Lion’s Story, an organization grounded in over 35 years of research in psychology, racial socialization, and human development, Dwight and I have spent the last five years training thousands of people to confront identity-based stress and transform their stories into tools for healing and change—at home, in the office, online, but mostly within themselves.

Dwight Dunston: Each episode will offer practical tools and reflective questions to help you navigate identity and difference with more clarity and less fear. Whether you're an educator, organizer, artist, or simply trying to make sense of the world around you, you're in the right place.

Shamm Petros: In this opening season, we'll explore stories of resilience, rupture, and repair, guided by people who have found the language for some of their hardest truths. Fair warning: it will get emotional. But for us, that's the point. We believe—and research shows—that when we can feel and accurately name our emotions, we are able to heal and resolve experiences in ways that support us in the present and future.

Settling In

Dwight Dunston: As we arrive at today’s story, we want to take a moment to settle in together. Wherever you are—walking, driving, or resting—we invite you to take a few breaths just for yourself. Inhale… and exhale. For the next 45 seconds, continue to breathe in this way as a moment of reprieve.

Introducing Lisa Nelson-Haynes

Dwight Dunston: Our guest today is Lisa Nelson-Haynes, Executive Director of Lion’s Story, where she leads the organization’s work in building racial literacy through storytelling, mindfulness, and education. Lisa is a longtime advocate for helping people claim their stories as a path to healing and justice.

Before joining Lion’s Story, Lisa was Chief Programs Officer at StoryCorps, leading national initiatives like One Small Step and the Mobile Tour. She is also the former Executive Director of Philadelphia Young Playwrights and co-creator of the award-winning podcast Mouthful. Her career has always centered on the power of personal narrative and the belief that everyone’s story matters.

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: Hello, you two. It’s so good to be with you today, Shamm and Dwight. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.

Earliest Memories of Difference

Shamm Petros: Lisa, we’re so happy to have you as our first guest. Before we dive in, how are you arriving today? On a scale of 1 to 10—1 being not stressed at all, 10 being very stressed—how are you feeling about sharing your story?

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: Honestly, I feel great. I woke up excited and curious about how this experience was going to be. I might be a little stressed, but not really. I’d say I’m at a 2—because I’m here with friends, and that makes it easier.

Shamm Petros: Thank you, Lisa. This season is formulated around one question we ask all our guests: What is your earliest memory of difference?

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I’ve had the opportunity to share some of these experiences before, but each time is different.

My earliest memory was pretty traumatic. I was four years old. At a gas station with my parents, I heard a white man call my father the N-word. Before I knew it, my father was pounding this man, hitting him in the face. I remember him being clearly enraged, and the man unable to defend himself. Oddly enough, I felt very calm. My mother was upset, trying to stop my dad. It lasted maybe a minute and a half.

Even as a child, I knew the man had disrespected my father. I didn’t have the language for it, but I knew that word was bad, and I believed my father’s reaction was warranted. It gave me a sense of confidence—don’t mess with me or my father. I knew he would take care of me.

Another memory from that same age was in a supermarket with my mom, who is very fair with gray-blue eyes. I asked, “Mom, how come you’re white and Daddy and I are Black?” She had heard it before, but this time she lost her patience. Loudly she said, “I’m Black, you’re Black, your dad’s Black. Stop asking me that question.” People in other aisles turned to stare. I never asked again.

Processing the Story Through Mindfulness

Shamm Petros: Thank you for sharing, Lisa. With your permission, I’d like to ask a few process questions.

One mindfulness strategy is to name all the feelings associated with a memory—then and now. What feelings come up for you?

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: I’m still proud of my dad. Even though his reaction was violent, I felt he refused to be disrespected, especially in front of his family. That made me feel safe. I also felt eerily calm, almost like I was watching something on TV, not physically present. And I was confused—confused about why my mom was so upset when to me it was clear why he reacted that way.

Trauma, Safety, and Pride

Shamm Petros: You described the moment as traumatic. What indicated that for you?

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: I remember noticing how bloody the man’s face was—that bothered me. I also recall my mother searching the glove compartment for napkins to wipe my father’s hands. That image stuck with me.

Later, when I reflected on it, I realized I felt both traumatized and safe. Pride and safety were both at an 8 out of 10 for me. That day shaped me. It gave me the confidence to look white people in the eye, speak my mind, and not be intimidated.

Toni Morrison and Reflections on Fathers

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: Years later, I heard Toni Morrison interviewed by Terry Gross. Toni recalled a white neighbor who disrespected her as a child, and her father reacted much like mine did. Terry Gross asked how she felt about it, expecting disapproval. Toni said, “I felt good about that. That man shouldn’t have spoken to me like that.”

I felt the same way. Many people see my father’s actions as brutish, but to me, he was protecting his family. Too often Black men are misrepresented when they respond to disrespect.

Mourning and Understanding Over Time

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: As I’ve grown older, I see my father differently. He passed in 2015 after a long illness. I cared for him during his final years. I wish I had told him that I understood his struggle—that his rigidity and even verbal abuse at home came from the burden he carried in the world. He did the best he could.

I feel mournful that I never expressed this to him, and mournful that Black men of his generation were promised opportunities after the civil rights movement that never fully came. The disappointment they carried often turned inward and outward at home.

Images and Self-Talk

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: I vividly remember what I was wearing that night at the gas station—my little dress and white tights. I remember my father washing his hands quietly in the basement afterward, calm after the storm.

In later years, even as he grew frail, I still believed he would protect me. That fierceness stayed with him and now lives in me. With my own children, I made sure they knew someone had their back. Our responses weren’t physical, but we addressed things directly—teachers, playground incidents, whatever needed attention.

If I had to capture the message of that early memory, it would be: Don’t mess with us. We are going to address it.

Finding Language and Outlets

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: As an adult, I see that my father lacked healthier outlets for his stress. He didn’t drink or do drugs, but without tools for self-regulation, the stress took a toll on his health and his joy.

If he had known then what we know now—about mindfulness, exercise, or healthier coping mechanisms—his life might have looked different.

Closing Reflections

Dwight Dunston: Lisa, thank you for sharing your story. Hearing you has helped me reflect on my own father and the burdens he carried. Your story brings healing and grace.

Shamm Petros: And thank you to our listeners. Remember: storytelling isn’t about sharing emotions for their own sake, but about gathering data for healing. Take time to reflect on your earliest memories of difference. Notice your emotions and what they tell you.

Lisa Nelson-Haynes: Thank you both. I’m honored to be part of this first episode.

Dwight Dunston: Until next time—keep listening, keep learning, and keep telling your story. And remember, you are your most important listener.